An exclusive interview with Sao Harn Yawnghwe who played a leading role in the Myanmar peace process.
Shan News interviewed Sao Harn Yawnghwe who played a leading role in the Myanmar peace process, about the views of the UN, ASEAN and international community about Myanmar three years after the military coup, China’s role in “Operation 1027” and building trust and unity among ethnics in Shan State.
He is one of the leaders who helped support EROs and CSOs along the border and political parties under the name of national reconciliation in the Myanmar peace process which began in 2011.
He was allowed to enter the country in the tenure of the quasi-civilian government led by President U Thein Sein in 2011.
He was one of the key figures in signing the Nationwide Ceasefire Agreement (NCA) between the U Thein Sein Administration and eight ethnic armed groups, including the Karen National Union (KNU) and the Restoration Council of Shan State (RCSS).
Since 2017, the NLD government led by Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, banned him from entering the country without any reason, but he has continued to support the peace process.
He is the son of Myanmar’s first President Sao Shwe Thaik and Sao Nang Hearn Kham who established the Shan State Army (SSA). He also serves as a director of Euro-Burma Office established in 1997 to promote the development of democracy in Myanmar.
Q: During three years after the military coup, the country has slipped into a civil war. Many people have fled their homes. May I know your view on the impact of the military coup and the international’s views on it?
A: The Myanmar military staged the coup citing the fact that the election lacked fairness and had electoral frauds. The army said the coup was aimed at seeking justice. The army itself destroyed the military-drafted constitution when it staged the coup. What they have done is already injustice. You can’t turn injustice into justice. Another thing is to correct the injustice again. There are other options to change it other than a coup. The people have shown their opposition to the military coup. The anti-coup movements can be found all over the country. Because the people have expressed their desire that the military is wrong, the military must actually give in. The army itself must review where it is going wrong. The army fails to do it. In addition, the army arrested and imprisoned anyone who were deemed to be the dissidents. The people who defend themselves are killed by the army. This is a violent method. It is not an army that protects the people and the Union, but it has become an army that protects itself. They will kill us if we are like sitting ducks. That’s why the people launched a resistance war against the army. Now not only ethnic peoples but also the entire country has started a resistance war against the army’s injustice. That’s why the country has been pretty much destroyed. Rehabilitation is not easy. The brutal killings of the people by the army are like barbarism. This is unacceptable to anyone.
In my view, every country in the world is governed with its own sovereignty. If a problem arises in that country, it will be solved in its own country. Foreign countries don’t interfere in it. Even though they say that, if they really don’t like it, they invade the countries. They invade the country they want. For Myanmar, they want Myanmar to solve its internal affairs itself. The United Nations has become a puppet of a powerful country. Myanmar borders China. The world views that China doesn’t accept international interference. So they don’t want to interfere in Myanmar affairs. There are no interests for them. Will China take these interests? Will neighboring countries like Thailand and India take it? As for Ukraine, they have got a lot of oil and other interests. So, they neither interfere in Myanmar affairs nor help Myanmar people.
Q: Northern Myanmar, especially northern Shan State, borders China. For instance, the people said China is widely involved in “Operation 1027”. Later, “Operation 11.11” was launched in Karenni State. Fighting is taking place in Arakan State and Karen State. Under these circumstances, no one can say which side will win. On the other hand, some groups still adhere to the NCA. So, what kind of situation can Myanmar become in the future?
A: First of all, they say they will stick to the NCA, but in reality, they can’t use it anymore. The main purpose of the NCA is not to stop the war. The NCA mainly aims to make a ceasefire and hold talks at the negotiation table. It has to be solved through political means. So, the military council itself has destroyed the NCA. We can no longer hold talks due to the army’s shift from political dialogue to military coup. We can’t talk to the army alone. We will have to talk to the government and political parties. We can do nothing as a result of the military coup. Political party cluster no longer exists. There is no cluster which represents the public. There is no government. Only the army remains. How can we talk to the army alone?
The army must return the country’s power to the government elected by the people if we want to talk to the army. I think it is good to talk to the government elected by the people. If we talk only to the military, this makes no sense. So, the NCA can no longer be used. In my view, it has been destroyed. The NCA’s goals and objectives are good. At the political dialogues, the U Thein Sein’s administration, the National League for Democracy (NLD)-led government and Min Aung Hlaing himself agreed that the country must march towards federalism and democracy. Similarly, as previously agreed, if the military talks about democracy, it must withdraw from politics. The army doesn’t withdraw from politics and continues to remain in politics. The army said it is working on the NCA path to achieve democracy. The army must withdraw from politics if it is working according to the NCA and for democracy. The army always said it is holding talks by upholding the NCA. In fact, this is no longer the correct way.
Q: Looking back at the peace process, there are bilateral agreements, the NCA and partial signing. There are state-level and union-level agreements. If it continues like this, what kind of benefits and losses can it be for the country?
A: Now fighting is taking place. We can’t talk about it through the NCA anymore. The NCA no longer exists. Holding state-and union-level talks is meaningless. In reality, it doesn’t exist. So, if we are going to talk about how to move forward, we have to start from scratch. Now we can’t talk to each other. Because we can’t talk if both sides don’t reach a compromise. If we can’t talk, we can neither proceed with the NCA nor go on any other way.
Others always ask why we don’t talk to the military. I am saying that if the military really wants to talk, it must stop its murderous actions. What the army is doing is not attacking Karen and Shan troops. The army is bombing ordinary civilians with jet fighters. If the army continues to do this, how will the ethnic armed groups talk? If not, the people will say bad words to them. Now the people die of bombings. It is not suitable to talk to the army which is killing the people. The army must stop it. If not, the army can’t talk to ethnic armed groups. Even if they talked, no one would believe them.
Q: On the other hand, is it actually possible for ASEAN, the UN and western countries to push Myanmar to implement the ASEAN’s five-point consensus?
A: It has been accepted by all that ASEAN’s 5-point Consensus is not working. But the problem is, if you look back at the Union, we have been fighting against each other for 76 years. It shows that it is impossible for the people within the Union to solve this problem among themselves. We have not been able to solve it for 76 years. They are still in a row. If it continues like this, we won’t find a way out. They will continue to fight against each other. Either the UN or other organization needs to serve as a referee in order to hold talks about what they want by ending the ongoing fighting.
The difficulty is that Myanmar is a neighboring country of China. Western countries will not accept it if China serves as a referee. In turn, China will not accept it if the western countries interfere in Myanmar affairs. Super powers have always been competing for power. The situation will be more complicated. The UN, the US and China will have to help support the process through ASEAN. However, it is impossible for ASEAN to really work. There are difficulties. We need to think about how the ASEAN really works. We are talking to many countries. If that happens, both China and the US will have to agree on it. We have to find that way. It is true that ASEAN’s intervention is not working now. But if we don’t use ASEAN, the situation might get worse. Other countries are scared of China’s intervention. Now, China just interferes in the border issue. China’s interference is not for the whole country. China is working only for border issues and the construction of roads and railroads, which provide access to sea exit and gas pipelines.
No matter which government is in power. If they are sure of what they want, nothing will happen. Either the military government or the democratic government is okay for China. We need to go beyond it. If this country does not resolve the 76-year-old war, it could get worse. If it continues like this, it can also affect China. Therefore, we have to think about how we can help solve the problems in the whole country. We don’t have to deal with border issues alone. There is no problem for India and Thailand as long as the crisis doesn’t reach their territories. If the situation worsens, people will flee. Even now, many have fled. So, we have to find a way to actually work with ASEAN. Now we are still discussing it. We can’t know for sure.
Q: Look at northern Shan State, China supports the Three Brotherhood Alliance. There is criticism that China also stands by the military council. In fact, is China only looking to its own interests?
A: Yes, Just like that. China will not go ahead when it has got what it wants.
Q: In northern Shan State, ethnic armed forces are pursuing their political goals by attacking the military council. They could seize the towns during “Operation 1027”. The surrender of Military Operations Command (MOC) and Regional Operations Command (ROC) happened for the first time in over 70 years of history. However, the Shan people are not satisfied with the absence of two Shan armed forces. May I know your view on the current situation of two Shan armed forces regarding the public’s expectations?
A: What will happen next? One thing is whether the military will be able to return to power and rule the country as usual. Another possibility is the collapse of the army. Also, the country will become a failed state. On the other hand, the democratic forces will become stronger and the army will weaken. The army may offer to hold a dialogue. These four possibilities may happen. No.4 is dialogue. Looking back at these four possibilities, what do you want to look like? If the army collapses, and the country becomes a failed state, —- . Before that happens, what do you think the neighboring countries will do? At that time, they will come and help the army. Because in their view, if the army collapses, and the country becomes a failed state, all the problems and sufferings of Myanmar will come to them. They don’t want these. They don’t want to see it.
That’s why they want to prevent Myanmar from becoming a failed state. They will encourage the Myanmar army. This will be the views of neighboring countries. What we say is not like that. It would be wrong if they did it. In the past, only the ethnic groups opposed the army. Now the whole country no longer accepts the army. In addition, “Operation 1027 ” shows that the military council is no longer as strong as before. In other people’s views, no matter how much the army is losing now, they think that the army will be able to continue to rule the entire country, in the end. What I said is not like that. Now it’s not the same as before. The situation has changed. Take a look at “Operation 1027”, it is obvious how weak the army is. That’s why, if we think that we have to talk to the military council and help the army retain power, we are wrong.
They need to look at the fact that who has become powerful now? and what should they do to help them? If they can help, no matter how the army collapses. Take a look at ethnic groups, Shan, Karen and Karenni States were ruled by themselves. These ethnic groups must colonize and enter the country to prevent it from becoming a failed state. When the army collapses, the ethnic groups must interfere in it. If so, our country will not become a failed state. I also told others that this method can prevent the country from becoming a failed State. If they accept it and help us, ASEAN’s mediation shall really work. It would be a better way to have a dialogue. Now, both methods are still difficult. It will be difficult for the ethnic groups to establish their own form of governance. It is still difficult for ASEAN to work. But we have to try to get this. They are afraid of becoming a failed state. At that time, they will only support the army.
Q: What factors will enable the country to become a failed state?
A: There are various situations. The important thing is that the army will not be able to continue at all. The army has no fighting power and can’t rule the country any longer. There will be a gradual retreat. If we can’t step in, there will be no law. The army has no law. At that time, the people there will do what they want to do. The situation will be more complicated. If we have no law, it will be like a robbery. Now the situation in Myanmar has become terrible. Now, what is happening in places like Laukkai and Shwe Kukko is international crime. If there is no law, there will be a massive inflow of such things into the country. Even now, the country has seen a lot of such businesses. We are concerned about it. In order not to become a failed state, our side must reserve the persons to replace them. Otherwise, it will be very difficult. We need to put a lot of effort into this matter.
Q: Now, if we look at the situation in Shan State, mutual trust has weakened. Lack of trust comes with lack of unity. What kind of work should we do to restore unity between Shan groups and other ethnic groups?
A: The fact that we can’t build trust between ourselves is largely because we don’t believe there is no evidence. It’s just that we can’t believe what we think. Even if we dislike a person, we should talk to him. The move aims to know the main cause and what we think is really true. If it’s not as you think, you have to solve it yourself. Other people may misunderstand you. After talking, there may be another one. You will know that it is not what you think. It can be different. The main thing is that we can’t talk to each other. So, they have misunderstandings and still can’t build trust. Not only Shan but also ethnic groups don’t trust the Bamar people or the army. Before talking about big issues like politics, we need to meet and talk to each other first to have friendship. After that, we can talk about politics.
I have had a conversation with ethnic people living in Shan State. They said that they did not get such a chance. They want their own state. It is true that they need to have a chance. They don’t get a chance even if they get their own state. What chance do Shan people have even though they have Shan State? Even other ethnics have more chances than Shan people. Even if we think that we have to demarcate the borders to get our own state, these problems will not be solved. We have to find a correct way to really solve it. “Wa” wants a state. It calls for the public’s nod. In addition to discussions among ourselves, we must also talk to the people. If we talk about democracy, we must listen to the voices of the people.
Q: Now the military coup has entered its 4th year. The people are in big trouble. They have no jobs. Children and youths are unable to pursue their education. Can you convey a message to the people in this situation?
A: The hardships the people are experiencing are severe. What I want to say is we don’t need to be discouraged. If we are depressed and do nothing, we will lose ourselves. I will find a way to help them as much as I can. But it may not materialize immediately. The world understands the plights of Myanmar people. Other countries don’t exactly know how to help our people yet. Thailand has promised to provide aid for Myanmar refugees. Now the relevant organizations are still discussing how to distribute aid. We have rejected a plan to cooperate with the Myanmar Red Cross Society (MRCS) in providing aid. It didn’t work. I have suggested that if they really want to help, they have to work with the organizations that are actually helping the people on the ground. Their concern is that if they help these groups, they will end up in the armed forces. What I am saying is that the ethnic armed groups also understand the way on how to help the people. We are still discussing what we can give to the groups that are really helping the people. But international diplomacy is very slow. That is not possible immediately. I would like to give a message that we have not forgotten the people. I was really sad. Shelling and aerial bombardments have killed many people. Children have no chance to pursue their education. Do they have to continue to grow up like this? We are discussing how we can help with this. If the fighting is not over, I can’t tell you how teachers enter the classrooms.
Q: Thank you for taking the time to give this interview.
A: Thank you.
Sent by Shan News